1 2 Previous Next 17 Replies Latest reply on Jan 7, 2010 6:07 AM by johnwoos

    RAID questions: ich10r

    Erior

      Hi there. This is my first post here, and please excuse my bad english ;-)

       

      Well, this is my question: I have a RAID 1+ 0 array mounted thanks to a ich10r chip (asus P5Q motherboard, if that is important). The size of the 4 HDs is not too big and I wish to upgrade to a larger array. Is it possible to do this without destroying the array?

      I lurked a lot in the internet and found many different answers. The main opinion is that it's impossible to change the size of such an array, even if changing 1 disk at a time and let the rebuild take place. This because the chipset configured the array for the original size and, even with all 4 disk changed at last, it will recognize only the original size, leaving the additional space wasted.

      Now... I just installed the Matrix Storage Manager 8.9 and found this in the documentation:

      ---QUOTE---

      RAID Volume Capacity Expansion

      Increases the data storage capacity of a       volume by utilizing 100% of available array space on a RAID 0, RAID 1, RAID       5, or RAID 10 volume, or by adding one or more hard drives to a RAID 0 or       RAID 5 volume.

      ---END QUOTE---

       

      Does this mean that it is actually possible to increase a 1+0 array by changing disk after disk? Or I completely misunderstood the whole?

      I'll really appreciate every piece of advice. Keep in mind that I wish to upgrade without (if possible) reinstalling windows. Any solution?

       

      Thanks a lot!

       

       

      Edit: I just read through the thread talking about the martix 8.9 problem. I'm quite new to RAID so I maybe miss something (and this worries me, since I installed MSM 8.9 a couple of hours ago). There are two distinct piece of software, right? The Manager (running under windows. Only for checking the status as far as I understand) and the chipset driver (most probably the one running after POST, with wich you build the array). If this is right and I have the windows manager 8.9 but an older driver all should be OK, right?

      Erm... sorry if this post is a bit confused. Hope you can understand ;-)

        • 1. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
          F5mann

          Well there is no EASY answer to your issue. The RAID controller has created a "virtual" RAID array. Virtual arrays can not be upsized even after installing larger drives and rebuilding the array(s).. Here is what I would do. Go ahead and install the larger drives and rebuild the array. Then using a 3rd party app such as Partition Magic (winPE 2.0) you can copy the data to either an external USB drive or a network share, then reboot the server, blow away the current RAID and construct a new array using the new hard disks. After that, boot using the winpe 2.0 CD and copy the array data from the USB or network share to the new array. I have not covered the obvious tasks like configure BIOS to boot from the CD before the RAID array and be sure that you have a 2009 VISTA driver handy just in case the winPE 2.o CD embedded driver will not recognize your HD. That about it, sounds worse than it is. I have done this procedure several times with positive results. ps. This is not a plug for PM spftware I am sure there are other manufacturers out there like Symantec but I have not used them for these tasks. Good Luck.

          • 2. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
            PeterUK

            RAID Volume Capacity Expansion

            This is only available with the ICH10DO not ICH10R

            http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-022304.htm

             

            However you are using RAID 1 +0 (10) so what you can do is this:


            Volume Conversion Options:

            4-drive RAID 10 to a 4, 5, or 6-drive RAID 5

            But you may have to Create another Volume to use the extra space because Capacity Expansion is not supported.

            • 3. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
              Erior

              Ehy, thanks for the quick reply!

               

              @PeterUK: I saw the table you posted in the above link. On the other hand, take a look to this interesting thread: http://communities.intel.com/message/46091#46091.
              An answer from Intel states that capacity expansion actually works with ich10r too, but no detail is provided. It will be great to see more info about that!
              Moreover, I would like to stick with the 10 array if possible. Anyway thanks for helping.

               

              @F5mann: I sadly can not understand what you mean by "virtual RAID array". It is a hardware built array, not software.
              As for your suggestion, let me know if I understood it right: you suggest to replace one after another the whole 4 disk set, letting the system the time to adjust parity and all. Then copy the data (using winPE 2.0, which if I understand your words correctly can be booted from CD/DVD and supports RAID arrays) to an external device, restart and rebuild a brand new array and last copy all my data into the new array.
              Two little questions more. I'm running winXP 64. Does this affect your procedure? And moreover, does the procedure affect the OS, or after the whole thing I'll be able to boot normally my moved OS?

               

              Thanks again to both of you!

              • 4. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                PeterUK

                @PeterUK: I saw the table you posted in the above link. On the other hand, take a look to this interesting thread: http://communities.intel.com/message/46091#46091.
                An answer from Intel states that capacity expansion actually works with ich10r too, but no detail is provided. It will be great to see more info about that!
                Moreover, I would like to stick with the 10 array if possible. Anyway thanks for helping.

                Well it would be nice if it really can support Capacity Expansion for the ICH10R.


                The problem with RAID 10 is the ICHXXR only supports 4 drives and if it was supported to do more you can only upgrade with an even number of drives starting from 4, 6, 8...and so on due to how RAID 10 works.


                If your ok to replace all the drives and without loosing data you can swap them out one at I time with new bigger drives after each rebuild of the array then and if Capacity Expansion does work use 100% of the new space without creating another volume.

                • 5. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                  F5mann

                  Oh OH. I read your post to fast for my own good! I was fixated on the Intel Embedded RAID and went completely off base. I guess because I just came off an issue similar to yours but the RAID was Intel embedded and virtual> Apologize.

                  • 6. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                    Erior

                    The "only 4 disk" problem is not really an issue for me. Even with the 50% space capacity of RAID 10 it's possible to have more than enough space for my needs with medium-sized disks.

                    I hope I can get a confirmation about the ich10r capabilities about expanding capacity.

                     

                    But let me ask another (maybe a little stupid) question: the MSM running under windows is actually useful for DOING something or is only for basic checking purposes? I have no actions possible beside "create RAID volume" and "create RAID volume from existing hard drive", and the only possibilities with right-click are (other that those cited above) "disable hard drive data cache" and "activate port LED".

                    No consistency check, no nothing. Are the full possibilities only available after POST (before windows starts)?

                    • 7. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                      Erior

                      Sorry for the new post, but I'm adding more info when it comes available.

                      This time is about the MSM 8.9 software. Somewhere in the previous posts I asked about the windows software, being apparently unable to do anything but light up some LEDs. Well... strange enough after a reboot (not the first one with MSM installed...) suddenly more options appeared.

                      But this is not the stranges thing... In the device tree that is shown by the advanced mode I see the MSM software, the chipset and then the "arrays" block. You can see the organization in the pic provided here. Please note that the HDs are NOT in the volume, but they are in the array.

                      MSM.jpg

                      Why the HDs are not in the volume, and what did it exactly means, I really can't tell. Moreover, if I try to run a "verify volume data" on my volume it says that it is not initialized and I have to initialize it before analyzing...

                      Something is wrong here... because the volume is up and running (proof is that windows can boot normally from the RAID array, and sees it correctly as only one drive) and I don't want to risk an "initialize" operation on an already running array. Not before knowing that it is without risks ;-)

                      Should I initialize it anyway? Should I rebuild the whole from scratch? Should I live with it and not be able to perform consistency checks?

                       

                      I'm putting here the System info from MSM too for reference. Please note that MSM is 8.9 for the windows software but 8.0 for the ROM.


                      Any help/suggestion will be much appreciated!!

                       

                      ----------------------------- MSM SYSTEM INFO ----------------------------

                      System Information

                       

                      Kit Installed: 8.9.0.1023
                      Kit Install History: 8.9.0.1023, Uninstall
                      Shell Version: 8.9.0.1023

                       

                      OS Name: Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional x64 Edition
                      OS Version: 5.2.3790 Service Pack 2 Build 3790
                      System Name: SX64PC
                      System Manufacturer: ASUSTeK Computer INC.
                      System Model: P5Q
                      Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad  CPU   Q8200  @ 2.33GHz
                      BIOS Version/Date: American Megatrends Inc. 2102   , 04/07/2009

                       

                      Language: ENU

                       

                       

                       

                      Intel(R) Matrix Storage Manager

                       

                      Intel RAID Controller: Intel(R) ICH8R/ICH9R/ICH10R/DO/PCH SATA RAID Controller
                      Number of Serial ATA ports: 6

                      RAID Option ROM Version: 8.0.0.1038
                      Driver Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      RAID Plug-In Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Language Resource Version of the RAID Plug-In: 8.9.0.1023
                      Create Volume Wizard Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Language Resource Version of the Create Volume Wizard: 8.9.0.1023
                      Create Volume from Existing Hard Drive Wizard Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Language Resource Version of the Create Volume from Existing Hard Drive Wizard: 8.9.0.1023
                      Modify Volume Wizard Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Language Resource Version of the Modify Volume Wizard: 8.9.0.1023
                      Delete Volume Wizard Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Language Resource Version of the Delete Volume Wizard: 8.9.0.1023
                      ISDI Library Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Event Monitor User Notification Tool Version: 8.9.0.1023
                      Language Resource Version of the Event Monitor User Notification Tool: 8.9.0.1023
                      Event Monitor Version: 8.9.0.1023

                      Array_0000
                      Status: No active migrations
                      Hard Drive Data Cache Enabled: Yes
                      Size: 613.5 GB
                      Free Space: 0 GB
                      Number of Hard Drives: 4
                      Hard Drive Member 1: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Hard Drive Member 2: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Hard Drive Member 3: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Hard Drive Member 4: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Number of Volumes: 1
                      Volume Member 1: AmRAID

                      AmRAID
                      Status: Normal
                      System Volume: Yes
                      Volume Write-Back Cache Enabled: No
                      RAID Level: RAID 10 (striping and mirroring)
                      Strip Size: 64 KB
                      Size: 306.7 GB
                      Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
                      Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
                      Number of Hard Drives: 4
                      Hard Drive Member 1: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Hard Drive Member 2: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Hard Drive Member 3: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Hard Drive Member 4: WDC WD1601ABYS-01C0A0
                      Parent Array: Array_0000

                       

                      ---------------------- MSM SYSTEM INFO END (data about the particular disks intentionally left out) -------------------------

                      • 8. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                        PeterUK

                        But this is not the stranges thing... In the device tree that is shown by the advanced mode I see the MSM software, the chipset and then the "arrays" block. You can see the organization in the pic provided here. Please note that the HDs are NOT in the volume, but they are in the array. Why the HDs are not in the volume, and what did it exactly means, I really can't tell.

                        Thats how it should look it means HDD's are in Array_0000 and the volume for that Array is in what RAID.

                        Moreover, if I try to run a "verify volume data" on my volume it says that it is not initialized and I have to initialize it before analyzing...

                        Something is wrong here... because the volume is up and running (proof is that windows can boot normally from the RAID array, and sees it correctly as only one drive) and I don't want to risk an "initialize" operation on an already running array. Not before knowing that it is without risks ;-)

                        Should I initialize it anyway? Should I rebuild the whole from scratch? Should I live with it and not be able to perform consistency checks?

                        Ok here is what happened when I setup the RAID for my OS...I installed Windows with RAID drivers I then installed MSM and auto initializing started/finished with no data loss. Now some say initializing will make you loss all your data yet initializing is what sets up the redundancy.

                        • 9. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                          Erior

                          Thats how it should look it means HDD's are in Array_0000 and the volume for that Array is in what RAID.

                          It's nice to learn something about RAID ;-). Thanks!

                           

                           


                          Now some say initializing will make you loss all your data yet initializing is what sets up the redundancy.

                          Hmmm... you are telling me that I may have a RAID array which, because it is not initialized thanks to MSM in the OS, does NOT have redundancy yet? In other words (please excuse me, but I've some difficulties in explaining myself in english) I have to initialize it to have a fully funcional array, and by now mine is no more than some disks used together?

                          • 10. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                            PeterUK

                            Hmmm... you are telling me that I may have a RAID array which, because it is not initialized thanks to MSM in the OS, does NOT have redundancy yet? In other words (please excuse me, but I've some difficulties in explaining myself in english) I have to initialize it to have a fully funcional array, and by now mine is no more than some disks used together?

                             

                            The whole initializing thing is the one thing I don't get with what I can pull up from the web initializing or reinitializing will loss all your data and yet it meant to be done when the RAID is setup.


                            Damned if you do damned if you don't backup and initialize it which takes hours to do so its a long time to cross your fingers for.

                            • 11. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                              philg

                              Peter, I am running Raid-1 using two Samsung 1Tb disks (Intel Rapid Storage Technology 9.5.0.1037 on ICH10R).

                               

                              Now I want to simply replace my disks with Seagate Barracuda of same size due to TELR support  - I think you are saying that I all I need to do is replace one disc at a time (ie pull Sata cable, and plug in new disk to same port) and then perform a rebuild of the array?

                               

                              Can you confirm it's that simple thanks?  (I will of course backup all my data offline, just in case)

                              • 12. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                                King

                                Hello All... New to the forums

                                 

                                Just wondered if anybody is able to explain the following to me. Recently purchased a ASUS P5Q Premium that supports 4 x Marvell 61* sata ports and 6 intel ICH10R. Mainly purchased the board for storage purposes. It was then that I realised that the bios only allows me to add 4 of the 6 disks that I had attached.

                                 

                                Googled it and came across this forum. Anyway. Due to the storage that I needed I opted for 6 x 1TB drives using RAID5. Seems a tad slow and does seem to rebuild/verify every now and then (5-6 hrs to complete each time). Also enabled cache as the transfer rate was poor at 30-50MB. Went up to about 80-85MB after enabling the cache option the the intel storage manager....

                                 

                                Anyway... I was curious about RAID 10. So scapped the RAID5. I was quite suprised that if you create the array using the intel storage manager - it appears to allow more than 4 disks to be used? originally when setting it up in the bios - it only allows 4 disks. Leaving 2 to do with as I wish. I was going to just create 2 disk array.....

                                 

                                          VOL000 RAID10 (0+1)   4  disks        1863 GB

                                 

                                When I deleted the array and re-created it via the Intel Storage manager thru windows - it allows me to add the 6 disks??

                                 

                                          VOL000 RAID10 (0+1)   6  disks        2794.GB

                                 

                                So can anbody explain why? is the above valid? or can I expected problems later?. Although I did notice on the first bootup in windows its reported that its going to take 9 hrs for the new array to initialize. Checked at lunch and had 2 hrs to go... so by the time I get home it should be completed and I can check the performance out then. Just curious really...

                                 

                                Kind Regards,

                                 

                                King

                                • 13. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                                  Overmind

                                  The capacity of 2794.GB is CRC-valid for 6 RAID10 1TB disks.

                                  • 14. Re: RAID questions: ich10r
                                    PeterUK

                                    Didn't think Intel supported 6 disk RAID 10 but its valid.

                                     

                                    RAID 10 can start at 4 disks and if supported with enough ports on the same controller goes up in 2 (4, 6, 8, 10...).

                                     

                                    RAID 10 and RAID 0 + 1 are not the same thing.

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