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    DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors

    russell

      Hi,

       

      I had no problems getting my system operating with an i7-3770K and the subject motherboard. However, when I updated the BIOS from 0038 to 0042 the computer would not start up, I was presented with a message advising me to visit processormatch.intel.com where I found that the processor is not compatible with this board.

       

      I managed to roll back the BIOS to 0038 (after buying a G530 CPU)  and all is working again so,,,

       

      The reason for buying the 3770K was to be able to underclock it to determine what performance figures were achievable at different settings and thermal constraints. The aim is to get close to the 3770T or 3770S but now I note that the 3770T does not show compatibility with ANY Intel motherboard.

       

      Based on this experience I'm wondering what certainty I can have that any processor that I choose today will not end up being locked out in any future BIOS release. I'm also wondering why the 3770K seems suitable for use with the 0038 version of the BIOS but not with 0042

       

      Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

       

      Regards

      Russell

        • 1. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
          Jason

          One thing I can tell you for sure, as I've seen it stated here before, under-clocking is not supported.

           

          A quick check of the compatibility for the i7-3770T processor suggests that there are quite a few motherboards that are compatible, I would suggest cross referencing from the motherboard side.

          3770t.PNG

          I searched processormatch.intel.com and found that no results were available from the search menu for i7-3770T, but that's inconclusive since the drop down menu doesn't have an entry for this proc.

           

          3770t2.PNG

          • 2. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
            russell

            Thanks for the feedback Jason,

             

            This page (Intel� Core� i7 Desktop Processor — Product order codes) shows that the 3770T is listed as either a tray or OEM product. Although it is compatible with various chipsets if you do a search for compatible INTEL motherboards on the processormatch site then it shows no compatibility.

             

            If you do a search on the processormatch site for 3770K compatible INTEL Motherboards the DQ77KB does not match yet, it does work on this motherboard with the BIOS release (0038) but not 0042.

             

            Underclocking is possible with the 3770K but not the 3770, 3770S or 3770T. The 3770K was bought specifically for this purpose and we are underclocking rather than overclocking as we want to understand how little power we can get away with (not how much performance we can get out of it irrespective of power consumption.

             

            But, the thrust of the question is how confident can anyone be that their motherboard / processor combination will not be made obsolete (as my combination has) in some future BIOS update? There must be somewhere in the BIOS that has a list of compatible processors and it must also be true that this list gets updated with BIOS revisions so where does this leave us?

             

            Russell

            • 3. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
              Jason

              From what I can see, it the i7-3770T was never qualified for that board.

              Intel® Processors and Boards Compatibility Tool - Search Results Page

              • 4. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                russell

                :-)

                 

                The 3770T does not show as compatible with ANY Intel motherboard (as previously stated)

                 

                The 3770K also does not show as being compatible with the DQ77KB motherboard, however, we have to accept that websites change their content to, hopefully, reflect current reality.

                 

                I can tell you for sure that the 3770K works with the DQ77KB motherboard under BIOS release 0038 because it is running now on this computer. I can also tell you for sure that it does not work on the same motherboard after updating the BIOS to 0042. Therefore I deduce that something has changed, specifically something within the BIOS has changed. Even more specifically something which identifies the installed CPU and compares it with an updated list of compatible processors that someone has typed in to some aspect of the BIOS.

                 

                Intel engineers have full control over what goes into the BIOS. As I have seen demonstrated they have the ability to break what was previously working by simply removing a processor from the supported list.

                 

                Under these circumstances I feel totally vulnerable.

                • 5. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                  Jason

                  Your contention is, how can a person have confidence that a processor qualified for a board today will not be unqualified for that same board in the future. My answer is, that chip and board were never qualified for inter-operation and therefore your concern is not valid.

                  • 6. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                    russell

                    Well,

                     

                    this doesn't really move things forward.

                     

                    I assume you didn't take the opportunity to look at the inter-operation website when the board / processor set was released (apologies if you did) and the reality is that the combination does work with certain BIOS.

                     

                    There is no indication in the BIOS release notes that certain processors are no longer valid so I contend that we are all at risk of Intel making invalid a previously functional combination and modifying the web site to confirm the same???

                    • 7. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                      Jason

                      Was that processor and motherboard pair ever documented as a working set by Intel? Just because the processor happened to work on that system, doesn't mean that it was an approved processor for that board.

                      • 8. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                        russell

                        There was a time when the bios didn't have a list of approved processors. Things either worked or they didn't.

                         

                        Things have moved on...

                         

                        Today the bios Intel managed DOES constrain things. This change is going to catch many people out. In the old days, an i7 motherboard would support all i7 processors. There has always been the need to check memory compatibility etc., but CPU?... Not really...

                         

                        For sure the motherboard states that it is compatible with i7 processors (Intel® Desktop Board DQ77KB: Overview). There's no reference here to specific i7 processors or a list of prohibited processors. And there never was such a set of disclaimers for processors as far as I am aware.

                         

                        My whole point here is that Intel changed the game, they did this very VERY recently and they didn't tell us. We had to find this out at our own expense and my concern remains that they have the ability to make things worse in the future.

                         

                        I'm not sure where you are coming from. Are you an Intel employee on the defensive or a helpful individual with an opinion? There is no escape from the fact that:

                         

                        1.     There was no indication on the commercial site that the processor / motherboard / bios combinbation would not work (you had to dig for this after the fact)

                        2.     The processor / motherboard / bios combination does work

                        3.     The processor / motherboard / bios combination stopped working once Intel updated the bios

                         

                        so:...

                         

                        what's to stop this scenario from repeating?

                         

                        Intel sell millions and millions of processors and motherboards. Experienced system builders like me get caught out, not through a lack of checking but through a stealth process under Intel control.

                         

                        How would you feel if you bought a car, took it in to your manufacturer's garage where they serviced the car which included a system software update which resulted in the car being immovable. This is entirely analogous to what's happened here.

                        • 9. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                          Jason

                          You know, there's no actual question in your first post, only a request for feedback. Which I have supplied.

                           

                          You're post title is DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors. I am inferring from that title that we should be discussing the approved processors for that board. There is only 1 i7 processor which approved for that board.

                           

                          That is not my opinion, it is documented clearly.

                           

                          The rest of your rant doesn't seem to be addressable in a IT/technical way. So, I'm not going to address it, accept by saying I know of no instance when Intel has rendered an approved processor to become unapproved. I am guessing that there are corner cases, but I'm not aware of them.

                          • 10. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                            russell

                            How nice of Jason to use the word rant, it helps paint a picture.

                             

                            The question is directed at someone in authority, perhaps someone that has control over how processors are matched with motherboards and how BIOS management has changed in the terms described above.

                             

                            The question is, how confident can we be that future BIOS updates will not repeat what I have experienced?

                             

                            As an aside there is the question of why the 3770T, which seems like a fine processor, is not approved for use on this motherboard. The thin ITX concept cries out for high performance, low power processors. To my mind the decision to exclude the 3770T seems more commercial than technical...

                             

                            Anyone out there with any knowledge in this area?

                            • 11. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                              aluminum

                              Pretty much this: They have a right to alter the BIOS table for undocumented CPUs put in there during engineering tests/QA and since they never had the 3770K on the DQ77KB website or manual, you are SOL.

                               

                              If I had to guess, someone realized there is an edge case risk of an incident where an unlocked CPU could pull more power than the onboard DC power regulator can handle, so for CYA/legal reasons they removed it.

                               

                              Being a large corporation they probably pay a room of lawyers just to weigh stuff like this: remote chance of expensive lawsuit/negative PR versus a small handful of DIY computer builders...it is an easy choice for them sorry to say. ("Intel cpu burns down house, news at 11")

                               

                              The board is technically only approved for <=65W cpus, the non-K 3770 is not on there either.

                               

                              As for the 3770T, you do have a non-obvious 45W alternative which is sold in a retail box and not parted out from the channel gougers which makes it easy to find and cheaper:

                               

                              Xeon E3 1265L V2

                               

                              This one is on the compatibility chart, so if they removed it later you would have very good standing to complain:

                              http://processormatch.intel.com/CompDB/SearchResult.aspx?BoardName=DQ77KB

                               

                              I actually took a risk and used this xeon before it was documented, we bet on different horses it seems.

                               

                              My advice: sell your K to one of the many computer enthusiasts out there (shouldn't take long) buy the xeon and chalk up the difference to **** happens.

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                              • 12. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                                russell

                                That makes a lot of sense :-)

                                 

                                Shame they didn't choose to include the 3770T but, like you say, the Xeon is a good alternative.

                                 

                                Thanks for your input Al

                                • 13. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                                  aluminum

                                  Apparently they just changed the 1265L V2 without notice and its actually only HD2500, so not quite the same...

                                   

                                  Another thing I noticed is the fine print everywhere on ark pages and compatibility charts basically says "subject to change without notice, this information is not official, maybe we made it up". Tomorrow someone could change the compatibility chart and push out a new bios that only works with i3s.

                                   

                                  So honestly the truth is: they are a gigantic corp that de-facto owns the market, you are a single person, anyone can get screwed by them and "too bad". They will at least try to be nice when they say "too bad", proper PR and all that.

                                   

                                  If only they printed all specs on the box and not a web url, you could win then.

                                  • 14. Re: DQ77KB, BIOS and approved processors
                                    Jason

                                    What are you trying to "win"?

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