14 Replies Latest reply on Jan 2, 2011 11:10 PM by parsec

    Postville Refresh 160gb.

    Polypenko

      Anxiously awaiting the release date of the new Postville Refresh SSD 160gb.

       

      Does anyboby know when the release is planned?

       

      thanks.

        • 1. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
          redux

          February seems to be the best guess, but that’s rumour, nothing official from Intel. Dang, don’t Intel know VAT is going up in the UK in January?

          • 2. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
            Polypenko

            Thanks, I was hoping early Jan.

            • 3. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
              DuckieHo

              Hopefully, Intel will showcase them as CES 2011.

              • 4. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                parsec

                I read something that said their release may have been delayed a bit for some performance updates.  Not much news on this out there.

                • 5. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                  Polypenko

                  Could also be that the release has been delayed, to ensure old stocks are sold.

                  • 6. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                    parsec

                    Well, considering that Intel just released two new G2 series SSDs, the X-25V 40GB, and the X-25M 120 GB models, you wouldn't think so.

                     

                    The current G2 models have been discounted a bit now but not enough to be considered "shelf clearing" prices.  So who knows?

                     

                    Intel doesn't update their SSD product line constantly, in contrast to other SSD manufactures whose products were found wanting by the hardware review web sites in late 2009 and early 2010.  Intel is much more professional and doesn't dump products that aren't truly ready for the marketplace.

                     

                    Currently, the competition is much greater as the other manufactures are producing good to great products, so Intel is making sure their products will be competitive in that market, I would imagine.  Frankly, they need to do that if they want to regain their once preeminent position in the SSD market.  Not that their current products are bad, they are simply no longer the king of the hill.

                    • 7. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                      DuckieHo

                      Good post parsec, Intel isn't a small 100-person SSD firm like Indilinx or SandForce.   The other big companies that produce NAND, controllers, and SSDs are Samsung and Toshiba.  You do not see many reviews about their SSDs either.  Samsungs newest SSD controller is actually quite good but they have been absolutely terrible at marketing it.  Smaller firms are more agile by their nature.  They develop controllers and get an OEM like OCZ to test it for them.

                       

                      BTW, I think Intel is more than capable of dropping their SSD prices.  First is the fact that they are producing the NAND for many other companies through IMFT.  Intel must be getting a discount from their NAND production.   Another case is the Kingston 40GB V-Series Boot Drive.  Kingston came out with this drive over a year ago for $80-100.  Intel later came out with the 40GB X25-V which is the same drive except with TRIM via firmware.  Intel was charging $140 for it.  The X25-V goes for $80-90 today but one has to think how Kingston was charging the same price a year ago when NAND was much more expensive.

                      • 8. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                        parsec

                        Thanks Duckie, and thanks for the info on Indilinx and SandForce, I did not know they were that small (no offense), rather surprising.

                         

                        Yes, I can't recall seeing an advertisement for Samsung or Toshiba SSDs, unless I've just been blinded by all the OCZ, Crucial, and Corsair ads (no offense guys, market away!)  Are they afraid to send their products to hardware review web sites?  I would think their products are beyond what happened with AnandTech and the early OCZ and other SSDs.

                         

                        I have seen comments elsewhere regarding Intel's ability to drop prices, given what you said.  Then again, if a manufacture drops it's prices, will the retailers as well?  I purchased an i7-930 CPU for a much lower price than the usual best on line retailers were charging for them (they are all gone now it seems.)  The on line retailer that sold me the '930 now has i7-950's for about the same price, while the other retailers are still higher.  The case you mentioned with the Intel-produced Kingston SSD is a great point, although I still wonder about any absolute correlation between wholesale and retail pricing.

                         

                        We may need to wait for the G3's to appear before the G2 prices are lowered to clear the stock.  Frankly, my G2's work so well now that a cheap G2 would be quite tempting even with G3's besting them in performance.

                         

                        Then again, the price drop may never happen.  Check the prices on higher-end socket 775 Core 2 Duo and Quads these days, they are virtually unchanged from the prices they were a year ago or more!  Or is that like expecting a brand new car that is a year old to be half price, the cost to produce it did not change, so a large price drop simply means low profit, and unlikely to happen.

                         

                        The relatively long wait for the G3s does not surprise me.  As well as not being as agile as small companies as you mentioned, I believe Intel wants to be sure the G3s are a great product.  Unfortunately, it still seems that sequential read and write speeds are the only marketing factors that are important in SSDs, and add to that the frenzy for SATA 3 speed and support/compatibility, Intel is stuck attempting to accomplish two things at once.  One is improving the performance in areas that actually do make a difference, such as IOPs, 4K random reads and writes, low latency, NAND longevity, or controller and garbage collection optimization, while having the SSDs do sequential reads at over 300MBs in a synthetic benchmark for the hardware tests and advertisements.  As we (ought) to know, those two things don't go together easily.  I do not envy the SSD engineers!  Good luck to them!

                        • 9. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                          redux

                          Hi Parsec, I agree very strongly with your last paragraph. I don't think people understand how fast SSD's are already. Faster sequential speeds can be achieved very easily by just going to raid 0, it's simply a case of spending money. That is not the case with other, more pertinent, performance criteria. 

                           

                          I know that a faster SSD will not make any significant difference to my desktop experience, so I'm not prepared to pay a premium anymore for something that is technically faster but delivers no tangible benefit.

                           

                          That is probably why Intel chose not to provide TRIM for G1 drives. TRIM was the only real differentiator between G1 and G2 drives.

                           

                          Cost, reliability and durability are now the key issues for me.  Intel has always delivered on the later two, but not on cost and this is where I hope that G3's will deliver.

                           

                          Although Intel have invested billions in NAND via IMFT the NAND market is now huge.  Whilst the percentage of NAND used for SSD's is quite small they must have made a good return on their investment already, so a significant price drop seems to be in order. 

                           

                          It will be interesting to see the price of the 600GB G3's. I can't see people paying the equivalent of a good laptop/ pc for a 600GB hard drive. You might as well stick to a small SSD for boot and buy a large capacity HDD for cents per GB.

                          • 10. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                            parsec

                            Hi redux, thanks and Happy New Year!

                             

                            Now this is an interesting (and bold) statement:

                             

                            "That is probably why Intel chose not to provide TRIM for G1 drives. TRIM  was the only real differentiator between G1 and G2 drives."

                             

                            So  no advantage going from 50nm to 32nm?  I'm realizing that I don't know  what the performance numbers for G1s are, but if they are close to G2s,  then you've made a good point.  To purposely withhold TRIM from G1 SSDs seems to me to be a dirty trick, as my friend's grandaughter would say, "not nice".  Let's be sure to say here that we do not know that is the case.  But wait...

                             

                            And, and, and, TRIM did not exist until Windows 7!  G1s pre-date Windows 7.  Never mind...

                             

                            It is irritating to me that the hardware review web  sites still list sequential read and write speeds before everything else  in tests, and do not do a good enough job, IMO, in making the point  that sequential speeds are not the most important aspect of SSD  performance, or of any type of permanent storage, for most users.  Or  the "my PC is faster than your PC" crowd chooses to ignore that.  Just  like I need to OC my i7-9xx CPU for web surfing and email, while my ISP has yet to reach 100Mbps, over my 1Gbps home network.

                             

                            Your comments about pricing are right on.  X-25M G2 80GB SSD  were introduced at $595, and I've never paid more that $200 for one  (nor would have) but things have changed now.  So the G3s may be  somewhat pricey at their introduction, but that will fall afterwards.   Then again, the SSD market is competitive now, so the prices ought to be "in the ballpark".  Also, in the HDD world, I read that a manufacture has a new process that may allow HDDs to have a capacity over 10TB.  The more things change, the more they stay the same.

                             

                            Still, Intel's investment in NAND fabrication  (Billions) can hardly be paid for yet, but that is an investment in the  future.  We may even see the day when Intel does not market SSDs, but simply sells the NAND chips to others.

                            • 11. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                              DuckieHo

                              Going from 50nm to 32nm actually had a negative effect on write cycles.  The smaller the process, the increase leakage and degradation.

                               

                              There was some minor performance gain from G1 to G2 but TRIM is the big difference.

                               

                               

                              IMFT has been selling NAND to other companies for years now.  Some batches of the OCZ Agility 1 used IMFT 32nm NAND.

                              • 12. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                                parsec

                                Duckie, Interesting about the 50nm vs 32nm thing, I did not know that.

                                 

                                So the obvious question is, why then go to 25nm flash, if it will have more of the negative affect of simply being smaller?  I guess it's not that much of a problem, it is compensated for, or the problem has been reduced or fixed.  I have three PCs with Intel X-25M 80GB SSDs for the OS, and I have not had the slightest bit of trouble or glitch with them (knock on silicon.)  I take them for granted actually, and one has Vista (gasp!) installed on it and it runs just as fast as my Win 7 PCs do.

                                 

                                A friend who is not a PC enthusiast has a lower-end pre-built PC with Vista on a HDD.  I was helping him with some new hardware, just optical drives, and we had to reboot his PC.  It took for-ever, I could not believe it, I thought there was a problem.  Sure all he had was a Pentium E5200, but the HDD was just cranking away, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but it is a newer large capacity SATA 2 HDD.  That's when I remembered the complaints of Vista being slow, but it never has been on my PC.

                                 

                                Cost will be the factor that could bring SSDs more into mainstream PC use.  The Apple Air, that super-thin laptop, has an SSD, and as people are impressed with that PC (except for the price) they may actually learn what an SSD is.  Most people still don't know what an SSD is, believe me, I talk about them and people have no idea.  So, there are many marketing opportunities there.

                                 

                                BTW, is IMFT in the stock market?

                                • 13. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                                  DuckieHo

                                  parsec wrote:

                                   

                                  Duckie, Interesting about the 50nm vs 32nm thing, I did not know that.

                                   

                                  So the obvious question is, why then go to 25nm flash, if it will have more of the negative affect of simply being smaller?  I guess it's not that much of a problem, it is compensated for, or the problem has been reduced or fixed.  I have three PCs with Intel X-25M 80GB SSDs for the OS, and I have not had the slightest bit of trouble or glitch with them (knock on silicon.)  I take them for granted actually, and one has Vista (gasp!) installed on it and it runs just as fast as my Win 7 PCs do.

                                   

                                  A friend who is not a PC enthusiast has a lower-end pre-built PC with Vista on a HDD.  I was helping him with some new hardware, just optical drives, and we had to reboot his PC.  It took for-ever, I could not believe it, I thought there was a problem.  Sure all he had was a Pentium E5200, but the HDD was just cranking away, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but it is a newer large capacity SATA 2 HDD.  That's when I remembered the complaints of Vista being slow, but it never has been on my PC.

                                   

                                  Cost will be the factor that could bring SSDs more into mainstream PC use.  The Apple Air, that super-thin laptop, has an SSD, and as people are impressed with that PC (except for the price) they may actually learn what an SSD is.  Most people still don't know what an SSD is, believe me, I talk about them and people have no idea.  So, there are many marketing opportunities there.

                                   

                                  BTW, is IMFT in the stock market?

                                  Cost.  Smaller processes allow for a larger number of chips per wafer.

                                   

                                  IMFT and others will be combating errors with ECC: http://www.anandtech.com/print/4043

                                   

                                  The problem with SSDs is users don't understand the benefits.  Users really have to experience one first hand to "feel" how nice it is to have one.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  As for IMFT, I don't believe you can purchase shares of this joint venture: http://www.imftech.com/company/faqs.html#ownership

                                  What is the ownership structure of IM Flash?

                                  Micron owns 51 percent of the company and Intel owns 49 percent.  The venture is a consolidated Micron subsidiary with a joint  Micron-Intel management team.

                                  • 14. Re: Postville Refresh 160gb.
                                    parsec

                                    Thanks for the info Duckie, I appreciate it.

                                     

                                    And now it make sense to me, IMFT:  Intel Micron Flash Technology

                                     

                                    But it seems they like to call themselves, IM Flash... nice pun!

                                     

                                    And made in the USA too, time to move to Utah!!