1 2 3 Previous Next 31 Replies Latest reply on Dec 23, 2010 8:46 AM by kusamba

    DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance

    kusamba

         OK, so I thought I could live with the onboard graphics of the Intel DG45ID motherboard.  But it has been 3 months and I think it is time to move on to a dedicated graphics card. 

       

      I still don´t want to play games on this machine but I do want web pages, photos and video to pop onto the screen.  I am looking for advice and recommendations.  (and cheap!)
      My system is an Intel Q9300, 4gig DDR2 PC6400 memory running Windows 7 Ultimate.

       

      Nvidia vs. ATI for non gamers?
      Is 512mb of memory enough?  too much?
      I have DDR2 memory on my mobo.  I see now the graphics cards have DDR3 - do I care?
      For my use, isn´t the minus-1 version of any decent card good enough for me?  Probably a used minus-1 card would be reasonably priced.
      Energy use is important for me.   Is one more efficient than others?

       

      Thanks in advance for any help.   I appreciate all input.   Later, Kusamba

        • 1. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
          parsec

          Hi Kusamba,

           

          I have a DG45ID and use the onboard graphics.  I also have two other PCs with separate graphics cards, both slightly different variations of the EVGA GT240.  Those cards are considered mid-range performance graphics cards, each has 1GB of memory, one with GDDR3, the other GDDR5.  I use these PCs with a 23" LG monitor, using either the DVI or the HDMI inputs, running 1920 X 1080 resolution at all times..  I've used the DG45ID PC with the DVI and HDMI outputs at various times.

           

          Frankly, for any non-PC game application, I can tell little, if any difference between the DG45ID's graphics and the EVGA graphics cards.  I don't understand what you mean by photos and videos "pop" onto the screen, please explain that a little better.

           

          What kind of monitor are you using and what connection are you using, VGA, DVI, or HDMI?  Also, what resolution do you use?  Have you downloaded the driver updates for the Intel Graphics Media Accelerator?  There is a new update for Win 7 dated 8/2010.

           

          Have you tried adjusting the settings in the Intel Graphics and Media Control Panel?  That might help you optimize your display.

           

          Regarding graphics cards, there are many PC hardware review web sites, a few that come to mind are Tom's Hardware, Anandtech, or Benchmark reviews.  They all have reviews of many graphics cards.

           

          Generally speaking, in the NVIDIA world, any card beyond a 240 or 250 will need extra power besides that provided by the PCI-E slot.  That is  they will have inputs for either a six or eight pin video card power cable from a power supply and are required for use.  You will want to avoid cards that need extra power if you want to save energy.  I am not familiar with ATI's line, or NVIDIA's 8000 or 9000 series.  There are all kinds of cards out there.

           

          The amount of memory you need depends on the game used.  GDDR3 memory is likely the minimum speed you should have.  512MB will be fine.

           

          When you mention "minus - 1", do you mean PCI-E 1.0?

          • 2. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
            Flying_Kiwi

            kusamba wrote:

             

               OK, so I thought I could live with the onboard graphics of the Intel DG45ID motherboard.  But it has been 3 months and I think it is time to move on to a dedicated graphics card. 

             

            I still don´t want to play games on this machine but I do want web pages, photos and video to pop onto the screen.  I am looking for advice and recommendations.  (and cheap!)
            My system is an Intel Q9300, 4gig DDR2 PC6400 memory running Windows 7 Ultimate.

            I'm using the onboard graphics of my DG45ID with Win 7 Home Premium 32 bit an E8500, 4 GB DDR2 and a 22" 1680 x 1050 32 bit monitor @ 60 Hz and web pages, photos and video already do appear quickly on the screen (unless it's peak time and my internet downloads slow a bit). Adding a dedicated graphics card WILL use more power (some significantly more) so it looks to me as if something has gone wrong with your setup if things aren't running lickety split for these functions.

             

            The G45 Graphics performance really is miles better than earlier Intel attempts at graphics hardware so unless you're wanting to run graphically intensive games or applications (not what you've specified), then I'd have thought the onboard graphics would be more than adequate. If your graphics performance has deteriorated since it was first used and you've installed lots of apps since, maybe it's time to have a disk cleanup or even a from the ground up reinstall to restore that lost performance at the cheapest possible price?

            • 3. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
              kusamba

              Thanks to parsec and Flying_Kiwi for your detailed comments.  From what you ssid and some further research, I may have a problem that is causing what I believed to be slow video response.  I do not know what the problem is though.


              I replaced the motherboard and power supply 3 months ago and updated all the drivers then.  Based on parsec´s driver comment, I updated the video and chipset drivers again today - no change in my perceived response time.  However, when I ran the Window´s Experience Index update, my Gaming Graphics number went down from 4.6 to 3.5.  Ran it again to be sure and it went up from 3.5 to 4.7.  The Graphics number went down from 4.6 to 4.5 and stayed there on the second run.  This does not seem right - suggesting a problem somewhere.  Anyone know of an application to test my hardware to see if it is functioning correctly?  I don´t even know where to start in diagnosing this problem.


              My monitor is a Huyndai L90D+ connected via DVI.  It pivots and I use it in Portrait mode at its recommended 1024X1280, 60Hz settings. All settings appear normal and OK to me.

              Graphics_settings.jpg

              `Popping on the screen´...  I just mean that the screen gets painted quickly, not slowly.  What I see is a blank screen for a second or two and then the screen starts to be built, maybe all at once.  But it is this delay that made me think that the video was slow - that it was building the page offline somewhere and then delivering it to the screen - all because of shared memory.  I should point out that I am using Firefox 3.6 but it also happens with Internet Explorer and Chrome.  And that I keep a lot of tabs open all the time - 31 currently.  I was running Firefox 4 Beta and had as many as 51 open tabs in 11 tab groups.  Now, before you get too excited about that, I can tell you that after a reboot, when I start a browser with just 5-6 tabs, the same video delay occurs.


              `Minus-1´.....  For example (fictional), Atlas released a video card a year ago called the K240. Six months ago, they replaced it with the K241, and today are selling a new one called the K242.  The K242 is the current model, the K241 is the minus-1 model and the K240 the minus-2 model.  In this example, I doubt I would need to buy the K242 - maybe saving some money by buying a closeout on the K240 or K241 or even a used card from someone that just upgraded.  (???)


              Disk...  I am only using 12% of a 320Gig drive and Ikeep it defragged.


              Memory.....  I had 2 2gig sticks and 2 1gig sticks on the old motherboard.  On this new DG45ID board I had lots of trouble getting the memory to work at all.  Had to put it in, take it out, back and forth many times switching sticks until I could get the 2 2 gig sticks to work at the same time.  With them in place, I have tried to add the 1 gig sticks to no avail.  Each stick has worked individually, some with others.  And all have passed the Memtest86+ test with zero errors over multiple passes.


              CPU.....  Intel Q9300 - seems fine, runs at 65°C. Beyond that, I know nothing!


              Again guys, thanks for your help.  Any ideas, suggestions, etc. would be appreciated.  Kusamba

              • 4. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                Flying_Kiwi

                Here is my Windows Experience Screen so your 4.6 for Graphics looks spot on as far as I can tell.Windows Experience.jpg

                I think the problem is simply that other aspects of the system are working hard (the Intel GMA after all only has one monitor to feed on your system and the resolution and refresh rate definitely aren't contributing). Since you replaced the motherboard did you perform a fresh (from the ground up) Windows install? Although it's a Plug and Play OS, it's definitely recommended to perform a fresh OS install after a motherboard is changed.

                • 5. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                  kusamba

                  Thanks Flying_Kiwi.  Those Windows Experience numbers are all pretty close to mine.  Hopefully someone knows of an app to test the system.


                  I forgot to mention that I installed a new hard drive and a fresh install of Windows 7 from the gound up.  I did try to run a Vista upgrade after the mobo install but it failed so I went down the path of least resistance.  thanks, Kusamba

                  • 6. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                    parsec

                    Ok kusamba, I understand what you mean and your situation better.  Just FYI, I use "only" 4GB of RAM and Win 7 64bit Home Prem, and a Q8300 CPU, so in general we have similar systems.  Running in portrait mode is not weird or a strain on the video processing, and is used by many people.  Plus the resolution you use is not extremely high, so why should there be difficulty "painting" your screen...

                     

                    I will mention this even though it might be ridiculous so forgive me... do you experience this only with Browsers on the Internet?  I use the latest Firefox mostly too.  So the real question; what is your Internet connection?  Wireless, direct CAT 5  from PC to cable modem or router, or what?  In the past I've used wireless routers, and the Internet response was so sloooow, I hated it.  Parts of the web page would display and others would take longer, much longer, like waiting for "google analytics" or some stupid web advertisement.  The page would not pop onto the screen, it was assembled basically, piece by piece.  Say you were looking at a still picture with Windows Picture Viewer, does that come right up or does it take time to build up?

                     

                    Otherwise, that is a weird problem, unless your system is so taxed somehow that it behaves as you describe.  Do you use the Intel Desktop Utilities program to monitor your CPU and motherboard?  If not, can you see what your G45/Northbridge temperature is with another monitoring program?  BTW, the temperature will always show 66 C or 151 F at the least with this motherboard, for whatever reason, even if the temp is lower..  The motherboard should shut down if the chip reaches about 100 C, but I wonder if it gets flakey if it is to hot.

                     

                    Yes, using the previously released model of a video card (gasp!)  would be fine and may even work better, driver bugs are all fixed by then.

                    • 7. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                      kusamba

                      Thanks parsec.  Every little bit helps me here!


                      My internet is wireless/cellular and although it is slow at times, it was just as slow when I had the previous motherboard and a graphics card.  I see a lot of those `waiting for Google analytics´ messages as well. 


                      Displaying a photo with Windows Photo viewer is immediate - no response delay.


                      I have a number of utilities, including the Intel Desktop Utilities, to monitor temperature - motherboard is currently 43°C.


                      Since my graphics problems did not exist with the previous motherboard (a not so wonderful HP Burbank-GL8E, AKA Asus IPIBL-TX) and graphiocs card (another not so wonderful GeForce 9300 GE with 256mb), I´m still thinking I have some type of problem.  Perhaps `user error´ !!!

                      • 8. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                        mechbob

                        I have two DG45ID SYS one has a GTX-250 the other a GTS-9800, Both give me a WEI score 7.3 and 7.2 . I went with these cards because the DG45ID has NO crossfire , which is my graphics of choice. Also I use 8GB DDR-2-800 Ram on both. If you like your sys and want to improve it Get a Good solid card. When you plug in a card the board will automaticly disable the on board graphics.

                        • 9. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                          parsec

                          Hmm, interesting.  A few comments...

                           

                          The PC case I use with this motherboard  allows mounting many fans, which I have done, including a 140mm fan on the side panel blowing directly on the motherboard.  Current temp is 26 C, and I've never seen a motherboard temperature as high as you stated.  Will you post your I/O Controller Hub and Memory Controller Hub temperatures from the Intel Desktop Utility program?  My IOH is 55C, and the MCH, which does not read below 66 C if its temperature is below that level, per motherboard spec, is 66 C.  Processor Thermal Margin is 65 C, which is not its actual temperature.

                           

                          Regarding the graphics issue, a hardware review web site has a heirarchy chart comparing various graphic cards and integrated graphics chips, which you can find here:

                           

                          http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-card-geforce-radeon,2761-7.html

                           

                          They rate the Intel GMA X4500 IGC rather low in the list, which is what we have on this motherboard, and if the 9300 graphics card you mentioned is the same or similar to the one they have on their list, it is rated one step above the Intel IGC.

                           

                          I just remembered that in the BIOS for this motherboard, you can adjust the size of system memory used with the graphics controller.  As I recall there are two settings, and in one you can set the memory available to 256MB, which is what I use.  Have you adjusted those settings?

                           

                          I found that with Windows 7, my Linksys wireless system was very slow, slower than with Windows XP on a different, older, and otherwise much slower PC.  I ran 100 feet of CAT 5E to my PC room for a direct connection and the difference was night and day, instant response.  That also depends on your ISP of course.  If you can you should try a direct connection rather than via wireless and see what the result is.

                          • 10. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                            kusamba

                            Thanks Robert, these sound like some pretty powerful graphics cards.  And 8gb of memory?  I was thinking 512mb!

                            • 11. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                              kusamba

                              Hi parsec.  Thanks again for your assistance.


                              Here´s my screenshot of the Intel Desktop Utilities.  Current temperature in my home is 28°C - might be driving the numbers up a bit.  Although the temperature of the CPU is a littel high, note the Processor Fan is only 304rpm - suggests someone thinks the temp is OK.  More often the CPU temp (not the Thermal Margin) is a few degrees lower and the fan speed is 500-800rpm.  It is in a mid tower case - pretty good airflow but I do have a couple of CoolerMaster 90CFM/120mm fans I could add if that would make a difference.

                              Intel Desktop Utilities.jpg

                              Regarding the BIOS Graphics settings, I have experimented with them at 256mb and `all you can eat´;  I see no difference.


                              Regarding my internet connection, I live in the middle of nowhere with only a USB connected, cellular wireless internet connection - sometimes 3G (high speed - full T1), sometimes not so fast 128mbs connection.  There is no wired alternative.  But I haved used this internet for almost 4 years and this graphics issue is new.  Windows 7 is the piece that is new - I was on Vista with the previous motherboard. 


                              I have a second computer running XP that picks up the wireless internet signal from my D-Link DI-524.  Graphics response time is OK on that machine and there has been no change to that machine in over 3 years - it also has onboard graphics.

                              • 12. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                                parsec

                                Hey There Kusamba,  Nice and warm where you are it seems, not so where I am, 7 C right now.

                                 

                                IMO you have some odd mother board temperatures, but my word on this is not absolute by any means.

                                 

                                The speed of your CPU fan is relative only to itself and it's application environment, if does not absolutely indicate performance or any temperature situation.  The CPU cooler I use with my Core i7-930 has a 120mm fan that runs at ~300RPM, and the idle CPU temperature is 28 C.

                                 

                                It is unusual to see the IOH temp greater than the MCH in my experience, I've never seen that with any motherboard I've owned.  Also, after seeing my MCH sit at 66 C constantly and finally finding in the technical specification for this motherboard a statement that it will never indicate a temp below 66 C, yours shows one less than that!  Here are my current numbers as I use the PC at this moment:

                                 

                                IDU ss01.png

                                FYI, this PC has four 140mm fans, two 120mm fans, plus the CPU cooler.  Yes I am a cool freak.  But this is not helping your problem much if at all.  If your CPU cooler has a PWM controlled fan, I recommend you set in the BIOS the Processor Zone Response to "Aggressive", which will speed up the CPU fan. Hopefully it is not to loud at that setting.

                                 

                                I don't recall you mentioning this, but did you put that old graphics card, the 9300, into this PC?  If you can I would try it and see what the result is.  Otherwise beg or borrow one if possible to try.  If you were planning on buy one anyway, go for it and see what happens.  Check that list I posted the link to, and get something better than this boards graphics (obviously!) and within your budget.  Just trying to see if the onboard graphics are the problem.

                                 

                                I also think you should try this; start or reboot the PC, have nothing running but one browser and see if you have your problem.  I just wish I could see the way your system's display is functioning...

                                • 13. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                                  Flying_Kiwi

                                  kusamba wrote:

                                   

                                  My internet is wireless/cellular and although it is slow at times, it was just as slow when I had the previous motherboard and a graphics card.  I see a lot of those `waiting for Google analytics´ messages as well. 


                                  Displaying a photo with Windows Photo viewer is immediate - no response delay.

                                  Bingo! Are you aware that Cellular Internet providers have the ability to send compressed images to your browser (which take longer to render and don't look as good in the end) even if you want to get the full high quality image and haven't altered your browser settings? It saves them in bandwidth but it means slower browsing for you. It seems like since you were using this ISP with your 'old' PC with the separate graphics card, the ISP has been implementing this (or implementing it more). This will explain why displaying graphics other than in the browser(s) is faster - seems pretty conclusive to me. Sorry for sending you down the wrong path with the system being taxed line of enquiry but I didn't realise you were using cellular internet then. If you find someone with a wired broadband connection you can borrow for a while, you'll see the difference.

                                   

                                  I'm certain that installing a separate graphics card will make no/little difference to your problem and your Windows Experience figures show the Intel GMA graphics performance is on par with mine (and I haven't even a hint of this when opening multiple instances of Internet Explorer). Maybe it's time to complain to the ISP (or find a better one).....

                                  • 14. Re: DG45ID Onboard Intel X4500HD Graphics Performance
                                    kusamba

                                    Thanks again Flying_Kiwi.  Unfortunately, internet options here are few and far between.  This option I use is as good as it gets.  Over a 4 year period, I´ve logged more than 100 support calls to my ISP (Vivo Telephone) to no avail.  I won´t bore you with their many problems.  Maybe someday I will take my computer in to the city, to a location with a wired connection, and test it.


                                    I was not aware of the compression techniques you mentioned.   Still, I don´t understand how it would negatively affect my Windows 7 computer and not the XP computer.

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