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Safe operating temperature for Q9400

ssote
New Contributor II
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Safe operating temperature for Q9400

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AlHill
Super User
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Anything less than 71.4°C

http://ark.intel.com/products/35365/Intel-Core2-Quad-Processor-Q9400-6M-Cache-2_66-GHz-1333-MHz-FSB Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor Q9400 (6M Cache, 2.66 GHz, 1333 MHz FSB) Specifications

Doc

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ssote
New Contributor II
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How do you measure Tcase? I want to know Tjmax of the cores.

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AlHill
Super User
3,571 Views

You can try https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/19792 Download Intel® Processor Diagnostic Tool

or some 3rd party tool like https://www.aida64.com/downloads https://www.aida64.com/downloads

The above link is provided for your convenience.

Doc

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ssote
New Contributor II
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Tcase is not the core temperature. Tcase is the temperature measurement using a thermocouple embedded in the center of the heat spreader. This initial measurement is done at the factory. Post-manufacturing, Tcase is calibrated by the BIOS, through a reading delivered by a diode between and below the cores.

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AlHill
Super User
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So, what are you asking for now? Your initial question was not specific and mentioned neither.

Did you try the utilities I referenced?

You asked for the safe operating temperature, which is anything less than 71.4°C

Doc

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ssote
New Contributor II
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71.4c is Tcase, inlet says folks can't measure that with software .

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n_scott_pearson
Super User
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In order to determine the Tcontrol temperature - the temperature that the fan speed control subsystem is required to maintain (and which defines the upper limit of the safe operational range) - you need a tool that can read the IA32_TEMPERATURE_TARGET MSR. Tcontrol is a field contained within this MSR.

...S

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n_scott_pearson
Super User
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Ok, at home and not using phone any longer, so can look a few things up...

The IA32_TEMPERATURE_TARGET MSR provides two pieces of information. The first, in bits 23::16, is the Tjmax temperature for the processor. This is also the temperature where the Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) begins throttling the performance of the processor to protect the processor from damaging temperatures. The second, in bits 15::8, is the Tcontrol Offset. This is the offset from Tjmax for the Tcontrol temperature. Here's an example: if the Tjmax temperature reads as 100 (degrees celsius) and the Tcontrol Offset reads as 20, this means that the absolute value of Tcontrol is 80.

Why this (seemingly) bizarre representation? Well, the Digital Thermal Sensors (DTS) in the processor (there's one per physical Core) are calibrated to the Tjmax temperature and they return temperature readings that are relative to (an offset from) the Tjmax temperature. If you read a DTS and it says the temperature is -40 and your processor's Tjmax temperature is, say, 100, then the current temperature of the Core in question is 60. There's one special case: the DTS cannot measure or return temperature readings that are above Tjmax. Thus, if the reading is 0 (zero), it means that, if (for example) your processor's Tjmax is 100, the temperature of the Core is 100 or higher. If the temperature goes a certain amount above Tjmax (Intel will not tell us how much as it can vary from one individual processor to another), the Thermal Protection Circuit (TPC) will power off the processor to protect it from damage. This is called a "therm-trip".

In some processors (Atom and some Celeron and Pentium), this MSR will not provide a Tcontrol Offset (value in MSR will be 0 (zero)). When this is the case, you have to pick a value to use. Based upon thermal analysis I did with some of the Desktop Board and early NUC products, I recommend the value 17 be used.

In some older processors (the Core 2 Duo/Quad, for example), this MSR will not provide a Tjmax value (value in MSR will be 0 (zero)). When this is the case, you have to pick a value to use. I recommend that you use the value 100.

I hope this helps. If you want to take the easy way out, you won't be too far wrong if you just assume that the Tcontrol temperature is ~80 and you stay below that.

...S

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ssote
New Contributor II
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I tried 95c and this is what I have.

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n_scott_pearson
Super User
3,571 Views

Tried 95c as what? Tjmax? This is way, way too high for Tcontrol.

The motherboard's fan speed control subsystem is required to keep the temperature of the processor at or below the Tcontrol temperature. By definition, if the temperature of the processor is at or above the Tcontrol temperature, the processor fan and any chassis fans are supposed to be running at their full speed. Remember, while the processor can handle being at the Tcontrol temperature for its entire warranted lifetime (literally), being at temperatures above this level can, over time, damage the processor and reduce its lifetime.

From what I am seeing in this display, your motherboard's fan speed control capability is not working adequately. This could be due to misconfiguration or inadequate fans/heatsink...

...S

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idata
Employee
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Hi,

 

 

Please check the following information about Tcase and Tjunction

 

 

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005597.html http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005597.html

 

 

Additionally, see the link below to get third party software to monitor processor temperatures

 

http://www.buildcomputers.net/check-cpu-temperature.html http://www.buildcomputers.net/check-cpu-temperature.html

 

 

NOTE: This link is being offered for your convenience and should not be viewed as an endorsement by Intel of the content, products, or services offered there.

 

 

Allan.
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ssote
New Contributor II
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N. Scott Pearson wrote:

Tried 95c as what? Tjmax? This is way, way too high for Tcontrol.

The motherboard's fan speed control subsystem is required to keep the temperature of the processor at or below the Tcontrol temperature. By definition, if the temperature of the processor is at or above the Tcontrol temperature, the processor fan and any chassis fans are supposed to be running at their full speed. Remember, while the processor can handle being at the Tcontrol temperature for its entire warranted lifetime (literally), being at temperatures above this level can, over time, damage the processor and reduce its lifetime.

From what I am seeing in this display, your motherboard's fan speed control capability is not working adequately. This could be due to misconfiguration or inadequate fans/heatsink...

...S

The processor can operate at TJMax for it's warranty life time correct?

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n_scott_pearson
Super User
3,571 Views

No!

The processor could operate at its Tcontrol temperature for its entire warranted lifetime, but should only go above this temperature if it can be guaranteed that the thermal solution can keep it below the thermal load line. By definition, since you do not have the inputs necessary to follow the thermal load line, your thermal solution should be running at maximum (i.e. fan at full speed) for any temperature above Tcontrol. Your Tcontrol temperature should be somewhere in the vicinity of 80-85c; you can read it (as an offset from Tjmax) via one of the MSRs.

Hope this helps,

...S

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ssote
New Contributor II
3,571 Views

What is Tcontrol? I don't see anything you are talking about in Intel's datasheets.

In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel Intel processors, the core temperature is measured by a sensor. If the core reaches its TJMax, this will trigger a protection mechanism to cool the processor. If the temperature rises above the TJMax, the processor will trigger an alarm to warn the computer operator who can then discontinue the process that is causing the overheating or shut down the computer to prevent damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junction_temperature Junction temperature - Wikipedia

Intel® Processors have built-in thermal protection. If the processor gets too hot, the built-in protection shuts down the processor. If your computer is not over-clocked, and is running under the design specifications, the built-in protection can help prevent damage to your system. http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005776.html What do I do if my computer is overheating?http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005776.html

Tjunction Max is the maximum temperature the cores can reach before thermal throttling is activated. Thermal throttling happens when the processor exceeds the maximum temperature. The processor shuts itself off in order to prevent permanent damage. Tjunction Max (Tj Max) is also referred to as TCC Activation Temperature in certain processor datasheets.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005597.html Frequently Asked Questions about Temperature for Intel® Desktop and...

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idata
Employee
3,571 Views

Hi,

 

 

I have found documentation about the TControl on the product datasheet

 

 

See below:

 

 

TCONTROL is a static value that is below the TCC activation temperature and used as a trigger point for fan speed control. When DTS > TCONTROL, the processor must comply to the TTV thermal profile.

 

 

http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/core2-qx9000-q9000-q8000-datasheet.pdf http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/core2-qx9000-q9000-q8000-datasheet.pdf

 

 

All this information available on page 85

 

 

Allan.
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ssote
New Contributor II
3,571 Views

Thanks for that information, now I know temperature value delivered over PECI in conjunction with the TCONTROL MSR value to control or optimize fan speeds.

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n_scott_pearson
Super User
3,571 Views

Correct; the temperature your receive over PECI is what you should use for fan speed control. This temperature is known as the "package" temperature. It is derived from the various DTS contained within the processor (Intel keeps secret the algorithm that is used to derive this temperature reading from the current readings of the various DTS). As I said, if the reading is above Tcontrol (the Control Temperature) and you do not have a way to determine whether it is exceeding the thermal load line, you should have the fan at full speed. Spending significant amounts of time above the thermal load line can cause silicon degradation and reduce the lifetime of the processor significantly. This is why you should not control fan speed based upon Tjmax (the Maximum Junction Temperature).

In the Core processors, the MSR provides both the Tjmax temperature (as an absolute value in °C) and the Tcontrol temperature (as an offset from (below) Tjmax). In the older Core2 processors, the Tcontrol temperature (offset) is provided but the Tjmax temperature is not (the field in the MSR reading will contain 0 (zero)). In this case, you should presume that Tjmax is 100°C.

Hope this helps (and does not confuse),

...S

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ssote
New Contributor II
3,571 Views

Do you have proof spending significant amounts of time above the thermal load line can cause silicon degradation and reduce the lifetime of the processor significantly?

My laptop for years operates at a temp of 90c, I cant find anything you are speaking of.

In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel Intel processors, the core temperature is measured by a sensor. If the core reaches its TJMax, this will trigger a protection mechanism to cool the processor. If the temperature rises above the TJMax, the processor will trigger an alarm to warn the computer operator who can then discontinue the process that is causing the overheating or shut down the computer to prevent damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junction_temperature Junction temperature - Wikipedia

Intel® Processors have built-in thermal protection. If the processor gets too hot, the built-in protection shuts down the processor. If your computer is not over-clocked, and is running under the design specifications, the built-in protection can help prevent damage to your system. http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005776.html What do I do if my computer is overheating?http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005776.html http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005776.html

Tjunction Max is the maximum temperature the cores can reach before thermal throttling is activated. Thermal throttling happens when the processor exceeds the maximum temperature. The processor shuts itself off in order to prevent permanent damage. Tjunction Max (Tj Max) is also referred to as TCC Activation Temperature in certain processor datasheets.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000005597.html Frequently Asked Questions about Temperature for Intel® Desktop and...

As an output, PROCHOT# (Processor Hot) will go active when the processor temperature monitoring sensor detects that the processor has reached its maximum safe operating temperature. This indicates that the processor Thermal Control Circuit (TCC) has been activated, if enabled. As an input, assertion of PROCHOT# by the system will activate the TCC, if enabled. The TCC will remain active until the system de-asserts PROCHOT# .

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n_scott_pearson
Super User
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Steve,

Nothing you are saying is incorrect, per se; you just aren't looking at the whole story...

There's plenty of proof, provided that you are willing to go off and do the readings (I am certainly not going to spoon-feed you). There have been a whole slew of related articles and presentations on this released over the years (some I even helped author/review during my many years at Intel). A good starting place is the collateral from the IDF conferences. Some of the best articles are those that were presented by Benson Inkley; using his name as your search criteria may help you find the articles faster.

...S

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