11 Replies Latest reply on Oct 17, 2016 3:46 PM by leecher

    16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor

    vossnik

      When  any 16 bit application loads, It just stops with no output. Check the taskmgr, found the NTVDM.exe used 25% CPU resource. No errors are reported.  While I've read since the 4th generation intel doesn't test 16bit apps this is still required in the real world.  What options are available.

        • 1. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
          Intel Corporation
          This message was posted on behalf of Intel Corporation

          I would need additional information about this matter, please fill out more details here:

          https://communities.intel.com/thread/77761

          Allan. 

          • 2. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
            vossnik

            Capture.JPG
              
             
             


              

            Category

            Questions

            Answers (N/A if not
              applicable)

            Description

            Provide a detailed description of
              the issue

            16 bit apps will not start on T460s

            Please place an X to the right of
              the option showing how often you see this issue using specific steps. (Ex:
              'Every few times a game is started it flickers.' <- This would be
              "Often")

            Always (100%):   X

            Often (51-99%):

            Sporadic (20-50%):

            Very Sporadic (<20%):

            Hardware (HW)

            Brand and Model of the system.

            T460s  20F9

            Hybrid or switchable graphics
              system?

              ie Does it have AMD or NV graphics too?

            No

            Make and model of any Displays that
              are used to see the issue (see note2 below).

              LFP
            = Local Flat Panel (Laptop panel)

              EFP = External Flat Panel (Monitor you plug in)

            LFP, EFP

            How much memory [RAM] in the system
              (see note2 below).

            8GB (4GB usable)

            Provide any other hardware needed
              to replicate the issue.

              ie: Cables&brand, cable type [vga, hdmi, DP, etc], dock,
              dongles/adapters, etc

            N/A

            Hardware Stepping (see note1
              below
            ).

             

            Software (SW)

            Operating System version (see
              note2 below).

            Windows 7 SP1 32bit

            VBIOS (video BIOS) version. This
              can be found in “information page” of CUI (right click on Desktop and select
              “Graphics Properties”.

            1031.0

            Graphics Driver version; for both
              integrated Intel and 3rd party vendors (see note2 below).

            20.19.15.4352  

            SW or Apps version used to
              replicate the issue.

            Lotus 123

            Configurations

            Single display, clone, or extended
              (see note2 below).

            all

            Display resolution & refresh
              rate setting of each display (see note2 below).

            1920x1080

            AC or DC mode, i.e. is power cable
              plugged in or not?

            yes

            How to repro

            Please provide steps to replicate
              the issue.  These steps are
            very crucial to finding the
              root cause and fix.

              A screenshot to illustrate the issue is a huge plus. A video of the failure
              is even better! Attach to the post or provide the YouTube link.

            1. Launching 16bit
                app on 32 bit Windows 7 SP1 results in 25% cpu utilization for the
                NTVDM.exe.  App does not start nor does
                the ntvdm.exe end on it’s own.  Using
                edit.com (and old windows command line) results in the same.

            ...

             

             

             

            • 3. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
              Intel Corporation
              This message was posted on behalf of Intel Corporation

              Thank you for the information. I am currently researching on this issue. I will update this thread as soon as possible.

              Allan. 

              • 4. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                Intel Corporation
                This message was posted on behalf of Intel Corporation

                I have been trying to get an update on this issue, I would like to know if you were able to run the application on compatibility mode. 
                Also, have you tested the application with the latest beta driver: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/26099/Intel-Beta-Graphics-Driver-for-Windows-10-and-Windows-7-8-1-15-40-?product=88355

                Allan. 

                • 5. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                  CyrilP

                  Hello All,

                   

                  I have the same issue.

                  I tried the compatibility mode and the latest beta driver you propose but nothing change.

                  NTVDM.exe still running @25% without doing anything.

                   

                  I tried also removing the Intel graphic driver and use the Windows generic vga, but not working too.

                   

                  I tried the workaround proposed in the other thread (Windows7 ntvdm.exe problem with 4th generation Intel processors ), disabling the Intel graphic card and intall a PCIe one. (AMD MSI R5450)

                  This works for me. I was able to run my application, no problem with the NTVDM.exe anymore.

                  If you have a better solution, I'll take it. Thanks.

                   

                  Here is the informations about my configuration and attached files.

                   

                  GraphicCard.jpg

                   

                  Category

                  Questions

                  Answers (N/A if not applicable)

                  Description

                  Provide a detailed description of the issue

                  16 bit apps will not start on Windows 7 SP1 pro 32bits

                  Please place an X to the right of the option showing how often you see this issue using specific steps. (Ex: 'Every few times a game is started it flickers.' <- This would be "Often")

                  Always (100%): X

                  Often (51-99%):

                  Sporadic (20-50%):

                  Very Sporadic (<20%):

                  Hardware (HW)

                  Brand and Model of the system.

                  custom industrial pc (DFI SD630 + Core i5-6500)

                  Hybrid or switchable graphics system?
                  ie Does it have AMD or NV graphics too?

                  No

                  Make and model of any Displays that are used to see the issue (see note2 below).
                  LFP
                  = Local Flat Panel (Laptop panel)
                  EFP = External Flat Panel (Monitor you plug in)

                  EFP

                  How much memory [RAM] in the system (see note2 below).

                  4G

                  Provide any other hardware needed to replicate the issue.
                  ie: Cables&brand, cable type [vga, hdmi, DP, etc], dock, dongles/adapters, etc

                  N/A

                  Hardware Stepping (see note1 below).

                   

                  Software (SW)

                  Operating System version (see note2 below).

                  Windows 7 SP1 pro 32bits French

                  VBIOS (video BIOS) version. This can be found in “information page” of CUI (right click on Desktop and select “Graphics Properties”.

                   

                  Graphics Driver version; for both integrated Intel and 3rd party vendors (see note2 below).

                  see attached files

                  SW or Apps version used to replicate the issue.

                   

                  Configurations

                  Single display, clone, or extended (see note2 below).

                  single display

                  Display resolution & refresh rate setting of each display (see note2 below).

                  see attached files

                  AC or DC mode, i.e. is power cable plugged in or not?

                  AC

                  How to repro

                  Please provide steps to replicate the issue.  These steps are very crucial to finding the root cause and fix.
                  A screenshot to illustrate the issue is a huge plus. A video of the failure is even better! Attach to the post or provide the YouTube link.

                  1. Launching 16bit
                      app on 32 bit Windows 7 SP1 results in 25% cpu utilization for the
                      NTVDM.exe.  App does not start nor does
                      the ntvdm.exe end on it’s own.  Using
                      edit.com (and old windows command line) results in the same.

                  ...

                  • 6. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                    allan_intel

                    Thanks for the information, I will send you a message after testing.

                     

                    Allan.

                    • 7. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                      allan_intel

                      I have been trying to replicate this matter but the NTVDM.exe does not even reach 10%. I am not an expert on Lotus so, I tried to run it windowed mode.

                      Have you check with your developer for any patch or anything that may help on this issue?

                       

                      Allan.

                      • 8. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                        CyrilP

                        Why do you talk about Lotus? I'm not using Lotus.

                        My application is a 16 bits installer of an application to manage an ICT tester. I have some chance because the application itself is a software which run under Exceed environment which is 32 bits application.

                        So my problem is just to install it.

                         

                        Anyway, I have tested with the Windows Edit.com command and I have the same effect.

                         

                        I didn't contact yet the manufacturer of the machine to see if he can do a 32 bits installer.

                        • 9. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                          allan_intel

                          Please let me know if your computer manufacturer has any feedback about this matter.

                           

                          Allan.

                          • 10. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor

                            Hello guys here,

                            I am so interested in this problem. Well, I have to mention something relating with Microsoft Windows products. Windows NT never open doors for processor mode switches, in other words, 16-bit codes never run under the real mode of x86 or x64 processors, but are emulated by NTVDM with IA-32 codes for 32-bit version of Windows only. 64-bit version of Windows never provides backwards support for 16-bit application, except for some 16-bit installer, so no 16-bit applications have chance to be executed directly or indirectly under compatibility mode, which is a sub-mode or working container exactly, along side with 64-bit sub mode of Long Mode (AMD64 processor) or IA-32e mode (Intel 64 processor).

                             

                            Processor Mode, normally has the meaning of different ways of operating on the same machine (underlying resources), but obviously, IA-32 and AMD64 (or merely point to its 64-bit mode) are roughly different but similar machines rather than the same one, from the aspect of processor architecture (rather than the underlying microarchitecture or the physical implementation). So the word "mode" in "Long Mode", "64-bit Mode" and "Compatibility Mode" is a very different and exceptional concept. And that is the reason why Microsoft initially named those systems as 64-bit extended system (x64). Well, the extended part of the system is just the AMD's effort for their AMD64 architecture, but severely based on Intel IA-32 architecture, and borrows from which too a lot. Those things make AMD64 could not be widely accepted as an AMD's exclusively possessed processor architecture. And this very extensional part keep itself almost standalone, leaving too much room for IA-32 architecture evolves into its 64-bit style as time goes by, and Itanium not gains the its another fame easily.

                             

                            Well, for this very question, I would not put my focus on GPU driver, but on the processor and software. Or in other words, frankly, there is only a compatible problem. Some instructions, Intel might intentionally make out of work in order to drop ancient applications. Or Microsoft needs a patch to work around it. Of course, this is only my possibly "guess".

                            • 11. Re: 16bit apps won't start using new SkyLake processor
                              leecher

                              Hi,

                               

                              As your problem is not only affecting fullscreen output or a startup problem but a total failure to start the application in windowed mode, the patch for the Intel VGA BIOS that I provided in Windows7 ntvdm.exe problem with 4th generation Intel processors may not be enough, but you can try it.

                              If it cannot patch it or doesn't help, here are some more hints:

                              1) The NTVDM doesn't support 32bit Port IN/OUT commands, but only 16bit. So if you are reading a video port into a 32bit register, only the lower 16 bit get filled, which may confuse the Intel Video BIOS code which depends on these registers. I wrote a patch for NTVDM that teaches NTVDM how to use 32bit IN/OUT, but I haven't released it yet, because this problem of NTVDM actually helps with my patch from the other thread so that I only need to patch one location instead of more locations which I would need to path if NTVDM would behave correctly and support 32bit I/O and the user needs to install fewer patches. However it may be beificial for the issue here. (Background: If Intel Video BIOS detects that it only gets back FFFFFFFF on a 32bit Port read, it jumps out of the ISR directly without doing anything which is not what we really want).

                              2) The drivers of some modern Graphic boards like i.e. NVIDIA ones have a flaw so that they don't specify which ports to route through to the graphics board in Fullscreen mode. So only the standard VGA Ports are routed through by VGAPORT.SYS. Intel VGA BIOS also uses F000 and F004 port for MMIO which are blocked by default. There is a little driver from http://web.archive.org/web/20061011090122/http://www.volny.cz/martin.sulak/ which can be downloaded from http://www.rayer.g6.cz/download/videoprt.zip that enables the port routing. This worked like a charm for my NVIDIA GeForce graphics card which had a problem with crashing Video BIOS on graphics mode switch. Maybe it is also benificial for Intel Graphics boards? Now finally, if it's just the Video mode switch that causes the VGA BIOS to lock up, I wrote a little DOS TSR that just reimplements the mode switch as an INT 10h hook. This was good enough for my GeForce BIOS mode switching bug, unti I discovered that the videoprt.sys driver patch was the better and more elegant solution. You can try this fix too, if you want, it's just a TSR tht doesn't do any harm and can easily be removed again: http://www.waldbauer.com/vb/showpost.php?p=8096&postcount=7

                               

                              I hope that helps, looking forward to hear your testing results.